Banuelos was definitely having trouble locating and he went deep into the count in almost every PA.  That said, it’s easy to see why people get excited about him.  His delivery is incredibly fluid…it just doesn’t look like he’s straining himself at all.  He was sitting at 92 with his fastball and dialed it up to 94 a couple of times, which would be good in its own right…but what that really did was set up a downright filthy change.  I didn’t see any difference in his delivery, but the velocity dropped down to 79-81, and bottom dropped out of it just before the plate…this pitch made Youkilis look like an idiot (I mean, more so) waving way ahead on a 3-2 change.  His demeanor was totally unflappable as well…I detected no change in his expression until Girardi came out to get him, and they started joking with each other a bit.  Pretty much everything I saw confirmed what I’d heard about him, except that he obviously didn’t have his best control.

Youkilis the genius: “Being left-handed and throwing hard, if you throw three good pitches and you’re left-handed, you don’t even have to throw 90.”  Link.

Yeah, from what I saw (2 innings) Banuelos didn’t have very sharp command.  His stuff looked good.  93mph on the fastball, low 80s change.  I saw one curve that hung a touch high, don’t recall the velo.  Nice.

I’m pissed that “Pasta” (as my wife calls him) is now a Red Sock.  It irritates me far beyond the likely on-field impact.  He was a useful part, and he was given away.  He was Mendoza 2.0, and that has value for a team whose back-end of the rotation is shaky at best.  I can only hope he really *is* Mendoza 2.0, complete with the disasterous results for the Sox.

Really no excuse for not giving Aceves a shot if you were giving Garcia and Colon a shot.

If letting Pasta go was about a spot on the 40 man, they should have just let Mitre go instead.

Rob Neyer on his Yankee questions.  Which is on topic b/c the questions are about pitching.

Youkilis the genius:

I don’t see anything wrong with that quote.  He’s saying you can be a successful lefty with three good pitches even if you don’t throw that 90, but he prefaced that by saying “being left-handed and throwing that hard” in reference to Banuelos.  IE, he could be good even if he didn’t throw hard, but he does.

If letting Pasta go was about a spot on the 40 man, they should have just let Mitre go instead.

Or Marte.  Or not having Robert Fish and Dan Turpen on the 40 man roster.  Or Steve Garrison.

[4] Well, they did offer him the same shot.  He was offered an MiL deal.  He turned it down.

The decision to non-tender Aceves because of one season of injury struck me as foolish at the time, and it’s starting to look even worse.

I think the bigger issue was the broken collarbone.

If letting Pasta go was about a spot on the 40 man, they should have just let Mitre go instead.

Well, again.  One guy is healthy, ready to pitch.  The other (at the time) was not healthy, not sure when he would pitch.  So, which one do you keep?

Really, this isn’t as big of an issue as you guys are making it out to be…

[9] Aceves is certainly under team control for several years, right? Why not DFA Marte and give Aceves his spot on the 40 man and put him on the 60 day DL?

There’s plenty of detritus on the 40 man.  Do we need 3 OFs who probably cant hit Golson,  Curtis, Maxwell.  Did we need Fish and Turpen.

You are 20 years old. You know it’s your last batter. The count is 3-2. The hitter is Youklis. You probably want to make your last pitch linger in people’s memories. You rare back and fire a….. soft toss changeup?

Spotty location last night aside, I really like the balls on Banuelos.

What magic potion do the Sox have that was able to “get him healthy”?

[13] Beckett’s used tobacco juice combined with Youklis beard hair makes a wonderful back salve.

Joba Chamberlain had an MRI yesterday but continues to tell the Yankees that he feels pretty good. “Functionally I think he’s fine,” Girardi said. Even so, it’s going to be a few days before Chamberlain pitches. There is no plan in place for when exactly he’ll pitch next.

Well, that doesn’t sound ominous.

The Aceves situation really makes me uncomfortable, because either the Yankees tossed away a useful arm for nothing, or he’s going to get hurt, and I don’t want to root for either of those outcomes.

[16]
Why are you excluding the possibility that he might just not be very effective?

[16] There’s also a possibility that they were unhappy with how he went about rehabbing his back. If he wasn’t supposed to be riding a bicycle that could have been the last straw for the Yankees.

At this point, it does seem that they were pretty foolish to let him go for nothing.

[15] Eek.

Marte signed after 2008. He was as healthy as they come. Then he suffered his injury and was out for most of 2009.

Not saying the deal wasn’t a bust, but it’s not really in any way comparable to what happened with Aceves.

There is an argument that they should have kept Aceves, but there’s the very strong likelihood that Ace will inevitably go down with the same back injury (he has a hernia, those don’t just ‘go away’ without some kind of surgery) and be completely useless. Also, he couldn’t even get an out in the minors when he tried to come back last year. There’s also the strong likelihood that this chronic back injury finishes him as a viable major leaguer.

Honestly it’s not really a big deal. It’s only being made into a big deal because the Red Sox signed him and they can do no wrong when it comes to pitching.

At this point, it does seem that they were pretty foolish to let him go for nothing.

Look, mostly they took a gamble, that with Alfredo missing most of the year b/c of a back injury, AND having broken his collarbone in the off-season, that they could get him to agree to a MiL deal.  Then they’d get the benefit of getting him to ST to rehab him, and be able to send him to either the minors OR EST, if he wasn’t ready.  They took a gamble, and lost.  Seems bad now.  Seems even worse b/c some guys who were on the 40-man at the time, looks like they lost.

Of course, if Ace goes down w/ the same injury in April, and one or more of the guys they could have DFA’d otherwise contributes something down the stretch - e.g. Marte comes back at the end of August and pitches great for 2 months to help win another title - perhaps the move will end up looking smart, after all.

[20] I mentioned Marte, but I didn’t mention anything about him being comparable. I just said since he’s likely to not pitch again for the Yankees, why does he need to be on the roster? Aceves was as worthwhile a project as Garcia or Colon.

[22] I was responding to the snark in the main post.

Why “Pasta”?

Don’t you work on a cooking show, FGas?

[24] Alfredo, as in fettucinne(sp).  I suppose he could be called “Chicken” instead.

Aceves was as worthwhile a project as Garcia or Colon.

Yes, and they treated him as such.  Here’s a MiL deal, come to camp and prove you’re healthy, and one of the best 12 or so pitchers.

Aceves vs Marte…unless they know something about Marte that we don’t (e.g. they believe he’ll be able to pitch effectively for 2 or 3 months in the second half of the year), then no, that one doesn’t make much sense.

[7] Anything can sound smart if you translate it into SG.

[26] Either nickname is superior to “Creamy cheese sauce.” Although, that does have a certain ring to it.

Of course, if Ace goes down w/ the same injury in April, and one or more of the guys they could have DFA’d otherwise contributes something down the stretch

In what world will Robert Fish, Dan Turpen, Steve Garrison, Greg Golson, or Justin Maxwell contribute anything to the Yankees major league club in 2011? 2012? 2013? Or ever? (I know Golson was on the postseason roster in 09 and contributed TONS when Girardi decided to put him in the 4 spot in place of ARod in extra innings, so I am glad they kept THAT guy around. If they DFA’d him, he gets scooped up in a second)

That’s before getting into the chances that Marte throws another pitch in a Yankees uniform.

I thought letting Pasta go, even with the injury issues, at the time was a bad idea due to having him under control beyond this season and him being cheap to keep around. Worse case was he eats up a spot on the 40 man during the winter and then goes on the 60 day DL. He is far more likely than any of the guys above to contribute something to the Yankees major league roster over the next couple of seasons. It looks really bad now since he looks healthy.

In what world will Robert Fish, Dan Turpen, Steve Garrison, Greg Golson, or Justin Maxwell contribute anything to the Yankees major league club in 2011?

Really?  There have never been players who you though poorly of pre-season who contributed more than you could expect at some point during the season?  Guys even you thought they should DFA?  I think all I ever need to say to that is “Aaron Small”.  Regardless of how fluky his season was, he still contributed as much (2.2 WAR by bBref) as Ace has in his career.  And I’m sure a number of people here (maybe you, maybe not) would have pilloried Cash if he had kept Ace but dumped Golson, but Ace was on the DL all year and Golson had a fluky-good season to help the Sox or Rays make the playoffs.

He is far more likely than any of the guys above to contribute something to the Yankees major league roster over the next couple of seasons.

Easy to say *now*.  Again, Yankees had a date where they had to offer a contract, or cut bait.  Whatever information they had on Ace at the time, led them to believe he was a bad risk.  Possible, but I doubt highly that doctors and trainers were telling Cash, “oh yeah, he’ll be his old self in mid-March”, and Cashman still cut him.  More likely it was, “Until he starts throwing we won’t be able to tell, and he may not even start throwing until May”, or similar.

Marte signed after 2008. He was as healthy as they come. Then he suffered his injury and was out for most of 2009.

The point was that they had a one year option on him that they could have exercised, for $6M.  Instead, they re-signed him for three years and $12M, and haven’t gotten crap for it after 2009.

At the time I said it was not a smart move, and they should have just picked up the option.  I just didn’t see the sense in committing to a short reliever for three seasons when you didn’t have to.

Yes, and they treated him as such.  Here’s a MiL deal, come to camp and prove you’re healthy, and one of the best 12 or so pitchers.

Except, he’s not a late 30’s retread. He’s a 28 year old pre-arb.

Project in the context of Freddy Garcia and Bartolo Colin is a MiLB deal. Project in the context of Aceves should have been at least a spot on the 40 man.

Of course, if Ace goes down w/ the same injury in April, and one or more of the guys they could have DFA’d otherwise contributes something down the stretch - e.g. Marte comes back at the end of August and pitches great for 2 months to help win another title - perhaps the move will end up looking smart, after all.

I still disagree because you are not accounting for the fact that his first arb year is 2012. This isn’t Jarrod Washburn.

[32] Of course, I agree with you completely, they pretty much threw $6M down the drain on Marte. I just don’t see what it has to do with letting go of a pitcher who has an unfixed herniated disk.

[33] I was specifically responding to, “Aceves was as worthwhile a project as Garcia or Colon.”  And they treated him “as worthwhile”.  Now, if you want to argue he is more worthwhile (as you are here), well that’s fine.  But a number of the arguments the past few threads have been, “how can they give Garcia/Colon a shot and not give Ace a shot!”  They tried.  He didn’t want to.

[34] Well sure, I understand that.  Yeah, they could keep him on the 40-man and the 60-day DL all year, hoping he’s healthy *next* year when he’s still (essentially) free.  And if they had DFA’d Marte and kept Ace I would have been fine with that.  But gosh, you don’t really think Cash forgot or something do you?  You don’t think that *maybe* he’s got some more information than we do?

Of course, I agree with you completely, they pretty much threw $6M down the drain on Marte.

I wasn’t quite as against it as others.  No, teams like Tampa can’t afford to do that.  But if Marte had the type of season we’d expect him to in 2009, there was no way they would sign him to a 2yr/$6M contract going into 2010.  So it again was a gamble, and one that didn’t work out.  Rich guys can just afford to take gambles the rest of us don’t.  I really don’t think Aceves was about the money.

Of course, I agree with you completely, they pretty much threw $6M down the drain on Marte. I just don’t see what it has to do with letting go of a pitcher who has an unfixed herniated disk.

It just seems like bad management to me to let someone who’s been effective and was still under team control for four years leave over money, which is basically what they did by non-tendering Aceves, given the way the team has thrown much larger amounts of money around in far worse cases.  In the worst case scenario, he’s not able to get back to effectiveness and you cut your losses, or he never gets healthy enough to pitch consistently and you’re out a bit of money.

Was he even arbitration-eligible?

31: sure Fish or Turpen or Garrison or Golson or Curtis or Maxwell might have, and the latter 4 might still contribute but so might Aceves.  Who was more likely Ace ot the least likely of the 6?  Marte is a sunk cost and irrelevant to whether Aceves should have been retained.

[24] Alfredo.  Makes her think pasta, therefore, Pasta.  To me, this is better than 90% of baseball nicknames nowadays.

Marte is a sunk cost and irrelevant to whether Aceves should have been retained.

Well, they non-tendered Pasta for SOME reason. If it’s money, that is just dumb when they just signed a guy to strictly pitch the ate for eleventy billion dollars with player options for each of the 10 years they signed him for. If it’s for 40 man roster reasons, they shouldn’t have kept sunk cost Marte on it. They could have DFA’d him instead. If it is health issues, then they obviously have inferior medical staff to those of the Sawx, at least from what I saw yesterday.

I was just curious as to what the reasoning was on DFAing a once effective longman who costs nothing and is under team control for 4 more years. I haven’t seen a good reason yet.

[40] It’s certainly better than Acevesey.

Good point.  Or “Alfredooey.”

<I haven’t seen a good reason yet.>

Isn’t “has a herniated disk and won’t accept a MiL deal” a good reason, even if it doesn’t convince you?

Who was more likely Ace ot the least likely of the 6?

Apparently, at the time, the Yankees felt one of the other 6.

Isn’t “has a herniated disk and won’t accept a MiL deal” a good reason, even if it doesn’t convince you?

Would be a pretty good one to me.  Yeah, maybe they made a mistake, and his injury isn’t is serious as they thought.  But comments like, ” If it is health issues, then they obviously have inferior medical staff to those of the Sawx, at least from what I saw yesterday.”  Really?

The counter-argument is that, given that he’s much younger than the 2 options they signed to MiL deals, and is under team control long-term, and an ML deal means (I think) only that he takes up a roster spot, and given his superior recent performance, and considering that he could be released if he got injured, freeing the roster spot, and considering that there are roster spots that could be freed without any great loss, it was irrational not to keep him.
That it just doesn’t make sense to avoid a risk of injury, even a relatively high one, since the down-side is so VERY low and the upside is higher than Colon/Garcia (if only because the upside, if it pans out, is low-cost for years to come).

[36] I’m sorry, I really don’t how this decision can be defended.

The only thing I can think of is that they had their eyes on certain players for the rule V draft and needed the roster spots. If Aceves had been tendered a contract (and assuming he is hurt), he would occupy a spot on the 40 man until the season begins and they move him to the 60 day DL. Still, I question how eye-popping a rule V guy could be to opt for him over a post-injury Aceves - both are essentially a gamble, but it’s hard to imagine a case where Aceves would be the worse gamble.

“But comments like, ” If it is health issues, then they obviously have inferior medical staff to those of the Sawx, at least from what I saw yesterday.”  Really?”

Why not? Cashman insists that they “could not get him healthy.” The Red Sox, it appears, did. How? Clam chowder’s healing powers?

I’m with J.  He was likely a much better gamble then Turpen or Fish.

[48]
No, the health comment was the weak link in Ted’s post.
And didn’t the Red Sox get to make their decision later than NY?  How much time passed between letting him go and the RS picking him up?  I honestly don’t recall.

[49] I’ll concede that maybe they liked somoene but who wasn’t available when they picked him. But when was the last time the Yankees had a rule V guy work out? Josh Phelps? This team is apparently deseperate for starting pitching and they let a starting pitching option go, no matter how you mix words or spin Cashman apologetics.

I’m not deeply invested in this debate, but I don’t why it’s such a big deal to lose a 28-year-old RH who had one solid year in mid-relief two years ago. 

The Yankees don’t need AA in their BP and there’s no particular reason to think he would establish himself as a starter given the young studs the Yankees have coming up in the minors. 

It also seems fairly clear to me that if AA were pitching for Milwaukee or KC this year, we wouldn’t be spending a lot of time arguing over whether the Yankees should have let him go.  It’s only because he happened to wind up in Boston, and happened to be pitching against the Yankees yesterday, that people are getting worked up over this. 

I’m also not convinced the Yankees acted “irrationally” in regard to AA [46].  There’s difference between a bad decision (especially a decision that’s “bad” in hindsight) and an irrational decision.  Evidently the Yankees thought that AA was a serviceable but unspectacular reliever who wouldn’t be able to contribute much in the short- to medium term because of his injuries, and they didn’t want to tie up a roster spot for him.  They might have underestimated Aceves’ potential, but that’s what a lot of teams do with respect to a lot of players a lot of the time.  They also sometimes guess right about players.  It’s not an exact science.

Finally, “Pasta”?  No.  First, the dude’s Mexican.  Second, if you have to explain the nickname, it’s too attenuated.  Calling him “Pasta” based on Alfredo sauce would be like calling Brett Gardner “Shrubbery” or Nick Swisher “Cigar” (some of you won’t even get that one!).

I will clarify my argument on the health post (and will acknowledge the Sawx had more time to decide as they had time after the fact to see how the collarbone was doing), but I would have preferred they gamble on the health of a proven player (Acevesey) to an unproven and not well thought of minor leaguer (Fishey, Turpeney, Garrisoney, Golsoney, or Maxwelley).

It wasn’t just Pasta’s health for this year I wanted them to gamble on. Maybe he would have needed the full year off and needed a surgery or two, but they would have still had an effective player at a low cost under team control for 3 more years. I can’t understand why they would just throw that away, unless they felt he is done for his career.

The Yankees non-tendered Pasta on Dec. 2. The Sawx signed him for $650K (and $100K more in incentives) on Feb. 9th.

I like the idea of calling Swisher “Cigar”. He is after all very sweet.

[48] It’s apparent that the Red Sox got him healthy after a handful of ST innings? I remain skeptical and will continue to remain skeptical until old age or injury or plain old ineffectiveness conspire to make Aceves not productive at which point I will insufferably shout “I TOLD YOU SO” from the highest rooftop.

Bring us… a SHRUBBERY!

[55] As will Cashman, possibly dressed as an elf.

[57] You mean climbing down the side of the building FROM the highest rooftop, don’t you.
 
And, honestly, I thought “Pasta” was incredibly obvious, requiring no explanation.  Not a killer nick, but hardly obscure.

“Pasto” would make it obscure.

I like it.  Like “Posado,” “Molino,” yes?
But with him on the RS, better to Girardieyize it to “Pasty.”

Yeah, and it’s manlier.

Well, they non-tendered Pasta for SOME reason.

They needed the roster spot.  And no, not for Justin Maxwell.  They needed it for Cliff Lee.