The Curse of Jerry Hairston, Jr./Eric Hinske:

Thursday, May 26, 2011

MLB Leaders in Outs Made through May 25, 2011

I was wondering if Derek Jeter had made more outs than anyone else in MLB so far this season, given the fact that he’s the leadoff hitter for MLB’s best offense with an anemic OBP.  Here are the top 50, defining outs as at bats minus hits plus sac bunts/flies plus GDP + caught stealing.

Player Team Lg Outs
Martin Prado Braves NL 171
Juan Pierre White Sox AL 165
Albert Pujols Cardinals NL 164
Dan Uggla Braves NL 164
Torii Hunter Angels AL 162
Chris Young Diamondbacks NL 162
Austin Jackson Tigers AL 159
Jimmy Rollins Phillies NL 157
Chone Figgins Mariners AL 157
Derek Jeter Yankees AL 155
Ichiro Suzuki Mariners AL 154
Ian Kinsler Rangers AL 154
Alex Rios White Sox AL 154
Elvis Andrus Rangers AL 152
Jose Reyes Mets NL 151
Carl Crawford Red Sox AL 151
Melky Cabrera Royals AL 150
Alexei Ramirez White Sox AL 150
Drew Stubbs Reds NL 150
Adrian Beltre Rangers AL 150
Aubrey Huff Giants NL 149
Michael Bourn Astros NL 148
Hunter Pence Astros NL 147
Nick Markakis Orioles AL 147
Casey McGehee Brewers NL 147
Dustin Pedroia Red Sox AL 147
Justin Upton Diamondbacks NL 147
Chris Coghlan Marlins NL 147
Danny Valencia Twins AL 147
Kelly Johnson Diamondbacks NL 147
Rickie Weeks Brewers NL 146
Omar Infante Marlins NL 146
Shin-Soo Choo Indians AL 146
Dexter Fowler Rockies NL 146
Hanley Ramirez Marlins NL 146
Daric Barton Athletics AL 146
Adrian Gonzalez Red Sox AL 145
Alex Gonzalez Braves NL 145
Ryan Howard Phillies NL 145
Ryan Ludwick Padres NL 145
Alex Gordon Royals AL 144
Sam Fuld Rays AL 144
Placido Polanco Phillies NL 143
Jacoby Ellsbury Red Sox AL 143
Troy Tulowitzki Rockies NL 143
James Loney Dodgers NL 143
Alcides Escobar Royals AL 143
Brandon Phillips Reds NL 142
Asdrubal Cabrera Indians AL 142
Carlos Lee Astros NL 142

Better than I expected, albeit still not great.

It’s odd to see Albert Pujols on here.  He started the year poorly at .150/.222/.225 over his first 10 games, then hit .317/.388/.525 over his next 27 games.  Since then he’s hit .241/.302/.328.  Apparently no one told him it was his contract year.  I thought his market was going to be a bit restricted since the two obvious destinations for him if he wanted to maximize his salary both have 1B signed long-term but this can’t be helping.

--Posted at 2:55 pm by SG / 63 Comments | - (0)


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This list doesn’t seem to add much to the discussion.  Jeter makes a lot of outs, but we see that so do a lot of other name brand players who play a lot.  Of course, we know he’s not doing much with his 155 outs, but even so, he’s managed to put up .5 WAR according to Fangraphs.  If he picks it up just a little, it’s not inconceivable that he could be a two-win player this year.  That’s not great, nor is it worth the money he’ll make, but it’s not the disaster that many here seem to want to make it.

Yahoo currently has the Red Sox record on their page listed as 27-22, 28-22 and 29-22, depending on where you look.

That’s pretty weak.

28-22 is the correct record, right?

[2] 50-0 is the correct record.

FU Cash for letting Aceves go.  He was ours for 1/2 mil, with two options and there were numerous openings on the 40 man. He’s been on the DL ZERO days and we fanned on a low cost, reasonably high return option.  And NO I’m not happy for him.  So FU Cash each and every day he pitches well what a complete effing no brainer blunder that was.  Oh wait I forgot we signed Buddy effing Carlyle.  I take it all back. And FU to our medical staff if they contributed to this. stupidity

jesus, I just logged in to post basically #4…......I agree, has to be stupid, but for that little money, why wouldn’t Cashman pull the trigger?  Somebody providing info to Cash just fucked up, plain and simple.

The Boston medical staff cleared Aceves for play but red-flagged Martin.

The Yankee medical staff red-flagged Aceves and cleared Martin.

I’m okay with that.

“That’s not great, nor is it worth the money he’ll make, but it’s not the disaster that many here seem to want to make it.”

Can I wishcast him to 5 WAR and then the doomsayers will look even sillier?  BBref has him at 0.2 WAR this year.  Would you consider 0.6 WAR a disaster?

But ok, I’d be grateful to get 2 WAR from Jeter this year.  Can I get it next year too?  And 2013?

We’re gonna have to agree to disagree on Aceves.  Cash has made some bad moves, but I think Aceves is pretty defensible.  It turned out his decision was wrong, but that doesn’t mean the decision-making process was wrong. 

Marte and Feliciano were much, much worse decisions.

Source Code-been there, done that, disappointing ending.  Hannah the best, most fun escapist movie I’ve seen in years. So full of interesting visuals instead of explosions.  Looking forward to Tree of Life, of the 4 Malick movies I’ve seen I loved all but the one about the pilgrims. I especially loved Badlands and oh that scene with Sheen and Spacek dancing to Love is Strange.

FG 8 what was the downside considering the cost?  It was half of what we gave Pryor.  Worst case he goes on the DL or is sent to Scranton.  According to RAB we had numerous opening on the 40 man and in the absolute worst case we could have DFAed him if he looked bad and we needed the roster spot.  Its like someone offering me a $100 win ticket for $10 on a 2-1 shot I thought was an underlay.  The reward overwhelmed the risk.  Now if he had required Feliciano money I would understand.

Is it my imagination or is offense down significantly across the league this season? Or is it just that the name players are older and not performing like they were when they were younger?

bebop - they just thought that Aceves would not remain healthy. Apparently they were also upset at his work ethic, and Aceves did have a few setbacks in his recovery, not to mention that off-season injury he got while biking. The Yankees hate when their players injure themselves while not playing baseball.

He couldn’t have been that hurt if he was available from the start of the season.  Maybe Cash just got bad medical advice.

Is it my imagination or is offense down significantly across the league this season?

Nope, not your imagination.  AL offense is about 8-9% lower than last year, NL is about 6% I think.

OMG, are the AL and the NL converging?

And I know it’s too early to tell what the year will look like, but those seem like HUGE drops.

[14] How much of the drop is Pujols responsible for?

[16] considering it dropped last year too, yeah it is.

MLB must be tinkering with the ball again, right?  Or is this another consequence of climate change?

This list is not accurate.  There are four Boston players on it and they don’t make outs.

Surprising to see Tulowitzki on there; I see his wOBA is down over 50 pts from last year.

[19] For Red Sox players, the list is outs below replacement.

The next 9 pitchers we face, 5 have ERAs under 3, King Felix is at 3 exactly and none have ERAs over 4.

Actually, I mis-remembered.  AL offense is about 5% lower than 2010, NL offense is about 6% lower.  That’s still pretty big considering the drop off last year.

The next 9 pitchers we face, 5 have ERAs under 3, King Felix is at 3 exactly and none have ERAs over 4.

Park factors are an AL West pitcher’s best friend.

According to RAB we had numerous opening on the 40 man

I am pretty sure that was misleading. They had numerous openings, but I believe it was pre-Rule 5, so they had a bunch of guys to protect, as well. So it was “is a hurt Aceves who might not pitch this year worth guy X that we don’t want to leave open to Rule 5?” And Cash said no.

My thought process: Juan Pierre is still in baseball and a fulltime player? Who on Earth would…. Oh, the White Sox.

AL Central, feel the excitement! (Cleveland is pretty cool, though)

26 Kevin Russo? Colin Curtis? Golson? We could have cut loose one of those and maybe Cash got bad advice from the medical staff but Ace was ready from day 1.

25 Pineda has an era+ of 170 and King Felix is King Felix so thats a twosome I would have liked to miss instead of facing to start the series.

[6] I would much rather have 2011 Martino. Eff Ace. He’s dead to me now.

[6] I would much rather have 2011 Martino. Eff Ace. He’s dead to me now.

I know how we can get Jeter’s out totals back off the top of the list: Bat him 9th. Fewer PA’s = Fewer Outs.

OMG, are the AL and the NL converging?

With a lineup including Jeter, Swisher, and Posada as the DH, we are running three pitcher’s spots out every night.

Bad mouse. TTK would have eaten it.

Silva 7ip 4h shutout not sure if this is good news but I suppose he’s better then last 2 guys in pen.  Montero 4ks tonight seems to be in a mini slump.

Wow. DET is really terrible. 28-3 over the last 2 games vs. TWN.

Time to DFA everybody and put Leyland on an ice floe.

Seriously, people are kvetching about letting Alfredo Aceves go?  Aceves. the guy who this morning had a 5.14 FIP in 22 innings?  The guy who last year contributed a grand total of 12 innings of 5.08 FIP ball?  THAT Aceves?  Who gives a flying F about Alfredo Alfredo ?

36 I hope you’re right and he pitches to his FIP.  Despite having studied graduate level statistics ages ago I am far less sabremetricly knowledgable then most of the RLYW citizens.  I do see he has a lifetime era+ of 145 which I know is good.  Maybe he’s in decline and has been lucky this year.  I wish him well in life but I hope he is a dismal failure as long as he wears tbe Townies’ uniform.

Helluva comeback by the Heat.

Not sure I agree completely with this one, but I am amused by the alt-text:

If the Heat win a championship, the Cavilier board will be hilarious to read.

I know we’ve discussed it in the past, but what is everyone’s current stance in regards to collisions at the plate?

I’ve said in the past that it just seems wrong to me that a player can tackle the catcher in the hope of dislodging the ball, and after watching Buster Posey’s injury - the idea that that is a “clean” play is fairly disturbing to me. The runner clearly goes into a take-out tackle. Not even barreling into Posey, but literally tackling the guy (and the force of the tackle wrenched Posey from a kneeling position and one of his legs stayed still while the rest of his body was flying, leading to a mangled leg).

[41] Posey wasn’t really in the right position there. He went up the 1st base line to get the ball and then was on his knees trying to block the plate. It was a rough play, but if Posey wasn’t kneeling right on his knees (and was instead, on his feet facing the runner like you’re supposed to do), he probably wouldn’t have gotten a season ending injury.

I categorize this in the same way that people categorize injury risk related to the finish of a pitcher’s delivery. If you go to Chris O’Leary’s site, every delivery he looks at includes an analysis of how the pitcher finishes and whether or not he’s in a good position to field a come backer. If you have a guy with a delivery that puts him in a position to get hit by a come backer, you should consider that when you get him on your team.

Same deal here, IMO.

I’m totally for getting rid of blocking the plate & the resulting collisions.  It’s stupid.  This is not a contact sport.

[43] I’m for more jumping dives over catchers blocking the plate. Can’t find the video link at work.

I hate home plate collisions. They should be banned.

[41, 43] If the catcher (or anyone for that matter) can stop a runner’s clear path to the plate, then it only makes sense that he is subject to a collision.  If a runner slides into home and meets a catcher wearing full gear blocking the plate, there is little to no chance he can score. 

My problem with the rule is that a catcher can block the plate BEFORE he has the ball, allowing him time to catch it and still prevent the runner from scoring.  If a runner is going full speed, he risks injury to himself by sliding or trying to get around the catcher.  I had no problem with the play that injured Posey because it looked like he was on his knees to attempt to prevent the run from scoring.  If he hadn’t done that, I’m not sure he would have been tackled as he was. 

The catcher is the one wearing full gear, I’m more worried about runners trying to slide around and getting fingers, arms, and ankles broken than I am about a catcher that is out of position.

I categorize this in the same way that people categorize injury risk related to the finish of a pitcher’s delivery.

I disagree 100%. You are equating the possibility of getting hurt by an accidental happenstance with a deliberate collision. Would you also say Posey’s technique should have been a forearm shiver to the runner’s head to keep him from reaching the plate ? Of course not. It’s not a matter of technique, but what the rules permit/encourage.

The point is this: the rules give both players the right to the space. In essence, “whatever happens, happens” and collisions are encouraged by the fact that the rule itself permits it.

I have a little trouble reconciling why it’s OK to drop your shoulder and knock a catcher on his ass and try to knock the ball loose at home, but A-Rod slapping at a glove while running to first is against the rules.

Would you also say Posey’s technique should have been a forearm shiver to the runner’s head to keep him from reaching the plate ? Of course not. It’s not a matter of technique, but what the rules permit/encourage.

No - like I said, Posey’s technique should have been to square up to the runner and not be kneeling down. Knee joints move well in one plane.

And evaluating technique as a method reducing injury is common for pitchers - why shouldn’t it be for catchers? I don’t know enough about Posey to make this comment about, but I imagine somewhere along the line, for some catcher, a scout has said “this guy has no idea what he’s doing on plays at the plate, and is going to get something broken as soon as there’s a collision.” How is that much different than a pitcher who can’t change his mechanics to be squared up to the batter when he finishes his delivery?

If you’re looking for 100% chance of no injury, it’s not going to happen in either case. The point is that good technique greatly reduces the risk of injury. Posey blocked the plate in a bad way and got injured because of that.

Agree completely with 43 and 45.  Home plate should be no different from other bases.

[49] I agree, but for the other bases the runner and fielder are informally assigned “rights” to sections of the base, how would home plate be portioned out? And there are considerably more non-force plays at home plate than the other bases.

[48] How is it different?  The pitcher controls everything.  When the pitcher has to take a throw, catch it and go immediately into a wind-up with someone running toward and into him, then we’ll have equivalent situations.

And there are considerably more non-force plays at home plate than the other bases.

Hmm.. I may be playing devil’s advocate against myself here, but I’d have to think that with stolen bases, 2nd base would have the most non-force plays, or at least be close to plays at home.

[48] How is it different?

I’m not seeing where I asked (even rhetorically) how it’s different. Of course it’s different. I’m merely saying that good technique on the mound reduces chances of getting hit by comebackers. So does good technique on plays at the plate. Posey did something very obviously wrong - if he didn’t, he wouldn’t be hurt the way he is and we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Now, that’s not to say he wouldn’t have gotten hurt, but a broken ankle was a clear result of the way he was position when the collision happened.

Edit: Sorry, hit ‘send’ too early.

The pitcher controls everything.

He doesn’t though - he doesn’t control the ball that comes screaming at his face after it leaves the bat. He needs to be in the correct position as to minimize the chance of getting injured.

Agree completely with 43 and 45.  Home plate should be no different from other bases.

I may need to consult the rule book again, but I don’t think home plate is any different than any other base in terms of contact.  The only reason we have collisions at home is because you can run through the base (obviously) and still score.  You can’t do that at second or third without risking being tagged out when losing contact with the bag.  At first, it’s a force play so there is no reason for a player to block the base.  And there have been cases where a first baseman has to grab a ball in the runners path and does get knocked over.

Even at second on force outs, the rules allow a runner to slide through the bag and make contact with the fielder trying to turn two.  I think (could be wrong) the only reason you can’t go in standing is because you would block a potential throw (plus, again, it’s a force out and not a tag play).

[49] - I agree.  If the catchers don’t like getting hurt then stop blocking the plate.  Stand behind the plate and give the runners a clear path to the plate.  2nd basemen don’t block the baseline on steal attempts.

Give the runner somewhere to go.  Stand in the right handed batters box and tag him with your glove.  If he kills you anyway then fine and suspend him.  If you block the plate (with or without the ball but especially without) then you are fair game.

Posada never blocked the plate.  He got a ton of crap for that (sometimes by me) but he never broke his leg either.

[53] Can’t remember the exact details, but several years ago, Albert Belle was a runner on 1st.  A ball was hit to a typical (i.e. small) 2nd baseman, who decided to tag Albert, and then throw to 1st to complete the DP.  He did so by getting between Albert and the base - while holding the ball.  Albert (being Albert) demolished him, preventing the DP.  I don’t recall if the umpires ruled DP in that game, but Albert WAS suspended.  I believe 5 games.  The same should happen at home.

The catcher absolutely should come out in front of the plate, *when he has the ball*.  That’s good baseball.  Why give the runner an opportunity to score with a nifty slide?  However, if the catcher doesn’t yet have the ball, he shouldn’t be in the baseline.  If the catcher has the ball, the runner shouldn’t be trying to bowl him over.  There’s no reason he can’t slow up, or even if he can’t, that he can’t slide feet-first.  Best way to prevent it is suspensions w/o pay, multiple offenders receive harsher penalties.

Posada never blocked the plate.  He got a ton of crap for that (sometimes by me) but he never broke his leg either.

Which is complete BS.  In particular a certain Texas first-baseman built like a linebacker, came in full steam on Posada when Po had the ball out in front of the plate.  Posada got demolished…held onto the ball for the out.  I’m sure that wasn’t the only time Posada was out in front of the plate and got demolished, too. 

“Posada not blocking the plate” is pure and simple confirmation bias.  Once the meme started, every time he didn’t block the plate - whether he would have had a worse chance at getting the out or not - was remembered as Po being a coward.

I would be okay with changing the “blocking the plate” rule from allowing the catcher to block the plate “while fielding the ball” (which could mean ANYthing) to “when he has the ball”

But if the catcher does have the ball, the runner should not be allowed to tackle him in the hopes that he drops the ball before he applies the tag. What is the reasoning behind THAT being allowed?

What is the reasoning behind THAT being allowed?

Probably since Ty Cobb used to do it, and if Cobb did it, it’s playing the game the way it was meant to!

[57] The problem there is how are you suppose to write the rule stop that? Theoretically, the runner has the right to the base and to get there as fast as possible.

Posada never blocked the plate.  He got a ton of crap for that (sometimes by me) but he never broke his leg either.

What Mike K. said… though I think your point is somewhat correct: Po was less likely to block the plate/more likely to try a sweep tag than some other catchers.  Thank goodness.  But he did get utterly clobbered by Tex in that game (oh, what a game).  He also hit a coupla dingers, including the walkoff job.  To me, it will always be “the Posada game.”  He was a god that day.

I don’t think you’re allowed to block bases other than home plate, which was why the play where Jeter got hurt at third was so outrageous.

Also, the guy doing the “tackling” is taking a hell of a risk too—he’s not wearing armor.

You’re not allowed to block ANY base.  Including home.  If you have the ball and come out in front of the bag to tag the runner that’s OK, because you’re in the process of making a tag.  Otherwise, if you’re not making a play on the ball, it is interference if you block the runner on the basepath.

To me, it’s simple.  If the catcher doesn’t have the ball, don’t get in front of the plate.  He’s trying to force the runner to go around him, giving more time for the ball to come to him.  Again, the 2nd baseman can’t stand 2 feet in front of 2nd on a steal.  Catcher’s interference.  If the catcher has the ball and is going for a tag, you can slide into him - headfirst, feetfirst, whatever - but you can’t bowl him over.  If you do that, runner out, AND subject to review.  League can and should impose penalties - both financial and suspensions.  It will stop happening…

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