Speaking of decisions to appease the fans, I would love to know just how it happened that the Yanks gave Jeter so many years and so much money.  It wasn’t competition from other teams that forced them to be so generous.

There is no doubt that this off-season was a complete failure for Cashman but he can still salvage it somewhat so I’m not going to pass final judgement on it yet.  What I will say is he is coming off as a complete douche every step of the way so far.

Did he really have no clue at the time he made the “I won’t give up my first round pick” decree that ownership wanted Soriano?  That’s hard to believe.  So yes you look stupid but you did it to yourself.  Then to go in public and air everything about your bosses?  Why?

I don’t think he is bad, I actually think he is good (not great) but with the current rotation his train-wreck of handling Hughes, Joba, IPK is becoming harder to overlook.

I don’t see how you can criticize his handling of Hughes.  Is it Cashman’s fault he had injury issues?  It’s pretty tough to complain about where he is right now, isn’t it?

If they’d kept him in the pen after 2009, yeah, that’d have been stupid.  But they didn’t.

How can a system where the AL East alone has 1/3 of the picks in the first two rounds possibly work, especially when three of those teams are top five in the league?

Obviously it helps teams like the Rays stay competitive against the Yanks and Sox, but not so much when the Sox have 4 picks in the top 40 after having spent a ton of money in the offseason? What a weird, messed up system

I dunno.  I guess I don’t find it that unusual or disturbing that there was less than 100% unanimity among the powers that be over one particular transaction.  Moreover, by the sound of it, Cashman wasn’t THAT opposed to the signing; he said he “did not recommend it.”  Another report I heard also indicated that he didn’t exactly fall on his sword upon finding that ownership wanted to do the Soriano deal.  What we seemingly have here is a case where Cashman was perhaps 60-40 opposed to the deal and ownership was perhaps 60-40 in favor.  Again, I just don’t think the episode is a huge cause for hand-wringing.

I also don’t understand why, on the one hand, (some) people think it’s terrible that Cashman was overruled, while on the other hand, the same people seem to think Cashman is either a horrible or at least mediocre GM.  If he’s that bad, why is it such a crime for ownership to veto his recommendations every so often?

Finally, I don’t see the problem with having an ownership that wants to make moves that will please the fans.  That’s all any owner wants to do, ultimately.  The question is whether the owner appreciates the fact that, in the final analysis, the thing that will please the fans the most is winning, so their moves must ultimately serve that goal.  Are we really concerned that this ownership is insufficiently focused on winning?  I don’t think that’s a fair criticism at all.  If the claim is that they are too focused on winning NOW vs. winning down the road, I don’t think that’s fair either.  What I understood Hank (or Randy, can’t remember which) to be saying was, “we need to be trying to win championships ALWAYS.”  If getting Soriano means losing a draft pick that could be valuable down the road, then maybe they’ll have to spend more on FAs down the road in order to make up the difference.  Regardless, they don’t see it as a choice between trying to win now and win later; it’s about making a commitment to the fans to try to win now AND win later.

He gave Hughes, IPK (and had Joba waiting to take one mid season) a rotation spot too early. 

Hughes wasn’t allowed to move back to the rotation in 2009.

Yes Hughes was given a rotation spot in 2010 but at the cost of Joba to the pen forever. 

So yes, Hughes worked out so you can argue you should overlook the missteps however it worked out at the cost of Joba.

My guess is he’s gone. I don’t think he’s terrible but the past two offseasons have been pretty bad and he’s maneuvered the rotation into something quite scary to look at.

[2, 3] If you were me, you’d complain about not moving Hughes to the rotation at some point in 2009. But Hughes is in a good place right now. I don’t really have any complaints about IPK. He was generally pretty bad and he brought back Granderson.

Joba is a disaster.

Cashman’s moves have generally made sense, even if they haven’t all worked out. Good logic is what I ask for in a GM and Cashman usually displays that.

Is he great? No. But, he makes very good trades and seems to know where to wisely spend money.

It’s had enough to try to win the WS every single year while simultaneously developing even one in-house starter. When you factor in the development gap that the Yankees had prior to Cash gaining more power (however evanescently), the result was putting too many young starters into the rotation without much freedom to surmount their respective learning curves.

How could he not give IPK a shot at the rotation the year after he destroyed the MiL and put up an ALE 1.89 ERA in 19 IP?  Hughes has just been good per FIP, but I would have started Joba in 2009 too.

OT, but I think this is an excellent discussion on reliever usage.

He gave Hughes, IPK (and had Joba waiting to take one mid season) a rotation spot too early. 

Hughes?  Seriously?  The Hughes that pitched 72.2 league average innings as a starter in 2007 got a rotation spot too early in 2008?

And Joba had pitched one professional season and it would not have been smart to expect him to be able to pitch a starter’s workload, particularly given the fact that the main reason he fell to the Yankees were concerns about his health in college.

Hughes wasn’t allowed to move back to the rotation in 2009.

And having Hughes setting up Mo got them to the World Series.

Yes Hughes was given a rotation spot in 2010 but at the cost of Joba to the pen forever. 

I don’t see how these two things are related.  If Joba had pitched well as a starter in 2009 I’m pretty sure he’d have been a starter in 2010.  My guess is if Joba had been decent they never would have traded for Vazquez and would have gone with Joba as the #4 and Hughes as the #5.

My take on the situation - and this is just an opinion - Cashman made his recommendation to ownership on Soriano.  At that point, he thought it was a closed case, which is when he made his statements to the media.  At some point AFTER that, Hank/Hal/Levine said, “We talked about it, and decided to sign Soriano after all.  Randy will handle that.”  Cashman spoke out publicly after the fact to try to reconcile the difference between what he said, and what happened.  And probably to try and rebuild his reputation a little.

I don’t know if this means anything for the future.  Best I know, Cashman has been overruled *twice* in 6 years.  If that continues (once every 3 years), I’m not worried about the franchise.  If it starts to happen more often, or if Hank/Hal/Levine start talking publicly more and making it difficult for Cashman to do his job, then I’ll worry.

There is a part of me - very small part but it’s there - that hopes that Soriano blows out his arm in April, his replacement from the minors (picked by Cashman of course) makes us forget 2007 Joba, and Yankees win the series.  While Tampa picks a SS w/ the pick they got from Yanks, and that SS blows through the low minors and is in AA by year’s end.  Just basically so Cash can say, “See, you gave ARod that contract when I said no, and look now?  You signed Soriano when I said no, and now we’ve got a useless reliever, AND our SS of 2013 and beyond is with Tampa.  Just stay out of my way.”

[13] I count three times since 2007: 1) A-Rod’s contract; 2) Posada’s fourth year; 3) Soriano, and I doubt that the “public record” is complete.

[14] Hmm, I didn’t know about Posada’s 4th year.  I thought that pressure came from Posada contacting the Mets.  Yankees didn’t really have an option besides Posada for 2008.

As for doubting the record is complete…well, that’s your perogative.  The only other thing I can think of that is close actually goes the other way.  I don’t recall the player, but Cashman was denied adding him b/c the cost was too high, as opposed to the other way around.

[15] Actually, I thought of another one that Cash has acknowledged. He wanted to add Cameron during the 2009 season, but Hal disallowed it.

I have no problem with ownership denying expenditures; that’s their inherent prerogative. I do, however, have an issue with ownership forcing an expenditure on a GM.

[13 - last paragraph]  Isn’t enough to root for the Yankees to succeed, in baseball games, against other teams without having to root for specific Yankees employees to succeed against other Yankees employees in behind-the-scenes front office intrigues?

Perogatives make me hungry.

He wanted to add Cameron during the 2009 season, but Hal disallowed it.

Right, that was it.  And I agree, with everything you say.  My only difference is if it happens *occasionally*, well, okay.  If your boss overrules or tells you to do something you think isn’t smart once in a while, well that’s what bosses are for.  When they micromanage you, there’s a problem.

[17] I wouldn’t care in the least if I didn’t think there could be long term benefits.  My feeling, is that Levine talked Hank/Hal into this deal.  If Soriano has a career-year and is a big part of a championship (as big as a setup man can be), that could strengthen Levine’s position, and weaken Cash’s.  Potentially resulting in Cash leaving and Levine hand-picking the next GM.  I think in the long-run, that would be bad for the Yanks.  I really don’t feel like revisiting the late-80’s/early-90’s, thanks.  If on the other hand Soriano fails spectacularly, that could reaffirm to Hank/Hal that leaving Cash alone may not always be flashy, but is best in the long run.

How could he not give IPK a shot at the rotation the year after he destroyed the MiL and put up an ALE 1.89 ERA in 19 IP?

What did he have, like 100 total IP over A ball at that point? 

Hughes?  Seriously?  The Hughes that pitched 72.2 league average innings as a starter in 2007 got a rotation spot too early in 2008?

No not Hughes.  Hughes, IPK, and Joba as the 4, 5 and 6 starters.  Hughes had the most experience but again he only had about 100 IP over AA at that point.  He should have been in the rotation but he was far from proven.  The 2008 rotation way too over reliant on young, unproven talent. 

And having Hughes setting up Mo got them to the World Series.

And do we know what would have happened if Hughes was in the rotation?  It’s not like Hughes lit it up in the 2009 playoffs.  Melky was the starting CF in 2009 too.  Does that mean it was a mistake to trade him?  They didn’t win the World Series in 2010. 

They had a 3 man rotation because they could not find a reliable 4th starter.  It was a huge risk that ended up paying off but it wasn’t an ideal situation they were hoping for and planning on by keeping Hughes (and Aceves) in the pen. 

I don’t see how these two things are related.  If Joba had pitched well as a starter in 2009 I’m pretty sure he’d have been a starter in 2010.  My guess is if Joba had been decent they never would have traded for Vazquez and would have gone with Joba as the #4 and Hughes as the #5.

It seems clear they didn’t want to have two young pitchers in the rotation after 2008.  Is that a guess?  Yes, but while Joba wasn’t great he was certainly good as a 23 year old to continue on as a starter.

And if they really knew there was no chance they would ever consider it again after ST last year, why didn’t they trade him then? He still had a lot of trade value so why no cash in on it? Why wait, and disparage him over and over again in public until you have beaten down his trade value? What freakin’ sense does that make? Now you have shown you don’t have faith in him to be a starter or closer, or even 8th inning guy.  If they knew they should have pulled the trigger on Haren.

And if they really knew there was no chance they would ever consider it again after ST last year, why didn’t they trade him then?

The simple explanation is that as of July 2010, they WEREN’T expecting to keep him in the bullpen for the rest of his career.  Sometime since then changed their minds.  I have no idea what that would be, but it’s certainly possible.

Deep draft shmeep shmaft. Those 12 picks for the Rays are just 12 more guys Tampa has to pay for until they’re ready to sign with the Sox or Yanks.

[21] - I understand that but then he still misjudged the talent over a short period of time.  And it seems like he did the same with IPK and Austin Jackson as well.  It’s still a negative.

“Deep draft shmeep shmaft.”

Finally, something we can all agree on!

Seriously, Tampa Bay is not going to reap quite the benefit it seems based on the raw number of picks.  I doubt they can afford to pay slot or above slot to all those guys, so they will inevitably have to over-draft, take some risks, hold the line on money and have some guys opt not to sign, etc.  And the Yankees will get some guys with signability issues by paying over-slot lower in the draft.  I mean I’m not wild about losing a draft pick, but let’s be real.

As far as Cashman, he does look bad after having said so strongly that he wouldn’t lose the draft pick and then being overruled.  I’m not sure why he would have said that in the first place—two possibilities, one is that he thought ownership agreed, the other is he was trying to maneuver them not to do something he thought was really dumb.  Either way I expect him to move on now, particularly having pointed the finger at them in public.  As many have commented, it’s normal to have your boss overrule you and sometimes that’s embarrassing, and maybe you decide to change scenery when you can.  But it’s REALLY strange that he would push back in public; I don’t think that’s going to endear him to any future employers.  Maybe he was just fed up with years of dealing with craziness from above.

It would be interesting so see what Cashman could do with a small market team, but I suspect he’ll probably go someplace like the Dodgers.

“What did he have, like 100 total IP over A ball at that point?”

When he went back to the minors he again destroyed them.  If anything it seems to me he didn’t get enough of a chance in the majors, based on e.g. FIP.

On the Cashman front, he got burned in public, he can’t just ignore that at the press conference.  Dollars to donuts he had discussed the tenor of his remarks with H&H beforehand.

[26]  I’m willing to wager a dollar against one glazed donut, but how could we ever settle?

[27] We could agree to base it on what Cashman says in his future memoir, _I Don’t Care That Joba Was An All-Star Starter For Ten Years For LAAA, He Belonged In The Pen_.

[28]  Agreed, but in cases of ambiguity (e.g., he simply doesn’t address whether he discussed it with them before the press conference) it’s a push, you eat the donut and I eat the dollar.

And do we know what would have happened if Hughes was in the rotation? 

I know that it is impossible for it to have worked out any better than keeping Hughes in the pen did, and that’s good enough for me.

Deep draft shmeep shmaft. Those 12 picks for the Rays are just 12 more guys Tampa has to pay for until they’re ready to sign with the Sox or Yanks.

True, but it hasn’t stopped them from winning the AL East twice in the past three years unfortunately.

I understand that but then he still misjudged the talent over a short period of time.  And it seems like he did the same with IPK and Austin Jackson as well.  It’s still a negative.

Given how Austin Jackson accrued his value in 2010, I’d be wary of assuming he’s going to be missed.  A player with his profile (very high K rate, very high BABIP, very little power) is not a good bet for continued success.  It doesn’t mean he can’t get better, because he can and he may.  It just means that thinking 2010 is a baseline and that he will improve as he moves towards his peak on that and eventually make the Yankees really regret trading him is far from certain.

To be honest, I’d like to see Jackson do well, because it would be a feather in the cap of the people on the Yankees who felt he was worth drafting and signing over slot.

If the Yankees are getting value back in trades, I don’t care if they are losing value.  The idea of trading crap for stars is attractive, but it’s just not realistic unless you’re the Red Sox.  I guess the question is if whatever Granderson gives them over the next year or two combined with last year is worth whatever Jackson/IPK and Phil Coke might have given them, but we probably won’t know that for a couple of years, and we’ll never know it definitively because we just don’t know how they’d have done in different circumstances.

Let’s just all agree that when Cashman signed Chan Ho Park it was stupid.

And Nick MVP Johnson.

“Let’s just all agree that when Cashman signed Chan Ho Park it was stupid.”

Maybe that will be addressed in the second volume of his memoirs, “All The Dumb Signings Were Driven By The Steinbrenners.”

[25] - I agree with that point.  He should have gotten another chance as well.  Hell it would be great to have him right now.  I just think having Hughes, IPK, and Joba as thr 4, 5 and 6 in 2008 was a mistake.

Just saw that Meche left $12M on the table to retire, saying it wasn’t fair to the team and the fans to have needed surgery and not pitch.  I tip my hat in his general direction.

Ethical or stupid, have to ask Randy Cohen for his opinion.

The Red Sox appear eager to get rid of Papelbon.  I hope it inspires him to pitch even worse this season, while remaining on the Red Sox.

Theo hates Papelboner, and here’s why:

  http://deadspin.com/5388660/coming-soon-jonathan-papelbons-dubious-taste-in-cinema

Rays acquire Mike Napoli, flip him to the Jays for Vernon Wells.  Which seems weird because Wells has a monster contract and the Rays be po’.

Edit: Not the Rays, but the Jays, acquire Napoli, in exchange for Wells.

Jays must be eating some of that salary.

They must be.  Wells is owed $23m this year, and $21m each of the three following years.  Argh.

It looks like Vernon Wells is headed for Los Angeles of Anaheim.

RS were going to offer Sori a one year contract if they traded Pap.  What would the Sori RS discount have looked like?

Alex Anthopoulus must be a very skilled negotiator.

“Cashman’s in the final year of his contract, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he isn’t back next year.  If I were him, I’d be pretty pissed off about having said that he didn’t think signing Soriano made sense and not wanting to give up his first round draft pick only to have his team do precisely that a couple of days later.”

If Cashman feels that way he’d be incredibly arrogant.  It’d be the equivalent of Hal firing him every time he does something idiotic, such as signing Chan Ho Park, trading for Grand Slam Vasquez, signing Nick Johnson and losing both Matsui and Damon, etc. By that standard, Hal should be pissed

I wouldn’t fire Cashman just for those bonehead moves over 1 season, that would be rash. But i also would expect him to reciprocate and be more tolerant of the owners occasionally deciding that a obtaining player outweight drafting a 31st pick.

I just looked at his numbers, and was surprised to learn how well Wells performed last year—.362 wOBA, 4.0 WAR—after an abysmal 2009.  I guess his defense is subpar.  He has been very up and down the last four years.

John Rivers heading to the Jays with Napoli.

According to Angels Blog
(http://angels.ocregister.com/2011/01/21/napoli-traded-to-blue-jays/71596/)
:

“Wells is owed $86 million over the next four years of his contract. Unless the Blue Jays agree to eat a large chunk of that, the Angels are apparently willing to pay Wells more per year than they were willing to pay Carl Crawford.”

John Rivers heading to the Jays with Napoli.

Isn’t he a former Yankee?

The Angels are jackasses.

[48] Former Yankee John Rivers heading to the Jays with Mike Napoli.

[47] ...and they didn’t have to give up Mike Napoli to get Carl Crawford.  Mike Scioscia never seemed to cotton to Napoli.  I don’t know why.

That trade kind of looks like a loser for the Angels.

The Rays are signing Johnny Damon and Manny Ramirez.

Do these moves upgrade their projection by a win or two?

The Rays seem to be intelligently run.

Joan Rivers?

Damn, the Angels are such a poorly-run franchise.

Blue Jays acquire former Yankee Joan Rivers.

Melissa is cheaper and younger

Any article about the Yankees by CBS.com is still petty revenge for the Steingrabber putsch in 1973.

“And the argument that the 31st pick in the draft generally doesn’t become much of a player ignores the fact that he could be traded if he’s a prospect.  It’s not like C.J. Henry amounted to anything, but he did net the Yankees Bobby Abreu.”

SG, that’s not really accurate.

The willingness to absorb the contract netted the Yankees Abreu.  C.J. Henry could have been O. Henry for all the Phillies cared.

Yankees posthumously deal short story writer O. Henry for Bobby Abreu.

[58] Henry was still the Yankee’s #4 prospect in 2006 according Baseball America. Money was undoubtedly the primary factor behind the trade, but I doubt that they Phillies viewed Henry as a non-entity.

Yankees posthumously deal short story writer O. Henry for Bobby Abreu.

Wait - the Yankees are dead?
That would explain quite a bit.

Melissa is cheaper and younger

But still dripping with hideous.

Oh Henry was a Brave soul. Good hitter too. Fine candy bar as well.
All I got fellers, its still football season for some of us.

[63] Shit. Up here it ain’t even basketball season anymore.

[60]  True, but didn’t I just read someone—Joe Pos?—writing that every team has their top 10 prospects, but that doesn’t mean they’re good.  IOW I’m sure the Phils were glad to get something, but they may not have really expected anything out of Henry.  Because that’s what they got.

Didn’t Philly get back in contention that year, too?

EDIT: Not that JP is the first or only person to have that insight, but it so happens I read him on the subject recently.

BOO YA! SCARLETT JOHANSSON IN IRON MAN 2!!!

Is this still a rebuilding year for TB?

All I got fellers, its still football season for some of us.

Indeed. Indeed it is.

SG and many of you guys have been overblowing the Soriano signing so much, it’s nauseating. Once the season starts you guys will be kneeling before Soriano.

The 2011 Yankees are stronger now.

Why the Cashman love? Are some of you guys transferring your own desires to be GM to Cash? Do we root for GM’s now and not players? Who cares how he feels or if he was overruled?

I’m a paying customer for 2011 and I want the Yanks in a better position to win NOW.

Draft picks be damned.

#5 BD got it right

Agreed. The Yankees should deal Bettances, Banuelos and Romine for Joe Blanton.

Blanton is better than Nova, so it improves the Yankees now, so let’s go for it!

@ 69 Yes. We all identify with the GM’s more than the players. That’s where baseball fandom went, like about seven years ago. None of us can relate to the actual physical deeds—they’re way, way beyond us—but we can all relate to making shrewd calculations based on extensive research and collectively developed analysis. That’s exactly the kind of people we are.

Mike Scioscia never seemed to cotton to Napoli.  I don’t know why.

Scioscia hates any catcher who hits better than he did.

Best troll ever was the Posado guy